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PCG vs Federation

on Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:12 pm
If a theoretical war were to take place between the military might of the PCG and the Federation, exactly how long do you guys think it would take before Star Fleet ran out of Mirandas? Razz

(I'm not sure where to post this)

Let's discuss this. Razz
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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:16 pm
Can't we do this in the chat? Like, y'know, we organized? Razz

To answer the question- IDK, it would require some time to mull over.

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Meanwhile, on the chat....
Arik wrote:I'm ready to get back to worldbuilding now... Razz

Tetrahedron wrote:I'm not sure if we should interrupt Ant like this...
He might kill us with his cow bombs

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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:40 pm
Honestly, I'm pretty sure the Federation would fall pretty quickly. (At least before Ianrobert and LT retired from the PCG, after that we consider them to have returned to Star Fleet as Admirals to help replace the corrupted Admiralty.)

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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:05 pm
...."Corrupted Admiralty"? Captain, I can assure you that there is not even a smidgen of corruption in the Federation. Razz

Returning to seriousness though, I agree that the Federation would not last very long, once the actual combat began. Star Fleet would naturally organize a fleet of 200 year old starships, being Star Fleet, and then send them off to get blown up by any PCG Supercruiser.   

Maybe a more interesting question would be, how much damage would the PCG take in taking down Star Fleet?
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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:07 pm
And why are we not on the chat? That's an interesting one. Razz

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Meanwhile, on the chat....
Arik wrote:I'm ready to get back to worldbuilding now... Razz

Tetrahedron wrote:I'm not sure if we should interrupt Ant like this...
He might kill us with his cow bombs

Star-Hunter wrote:"He might kill us with his cow bombs."
I'll take phrases I never thought I'd hear in my lifetime for $500
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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:41 pm
There's a chat? Where?
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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Sat Jul 26, 2014 9:14 pm
At the very bottom of the main page, you'll see a button that says "join the chat". We were planning to get everyone on it for the anniversary. Razz

Mostly, it was just me and Dino, with others popping in. Razz

Lasted a good while- 10 AM to 4 AM the next day. I was there for most of it. Razz

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~Tetrahedron the Deceiver, Locutus of Geometry, Chief Librarian of the Phoenix, Mathematical Bloodletter, First Captain of Vanguard Fleet


Meanwhile, on the chat....
Arik wrote:I'm ready to get back to worldbuilding now... Razz

Tetrahedron wrote:I'm not sure if we should interrupt Ant like this...
He might kill us with his cow bombs

Star-Hunter wrote:"He might kill us with his cow bombs."
I'll take phrases I never thought I'd hear in my lifetime for $500
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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Sat Jul 26, 2014 9:40 pm
Hmmm... I think that Starfleet would ultimately destroy dozens, maybe several hundred PCG vessels. It really depends on if this is Talmid Federation, or ordinary Federation. If it;s ordinary Federation, we'd mop the floor with them because they are afraid of holding and using military power. We aren't. Our ships are 99% warships. The Federation is about 80% ish multipurpose, with a heavy emphases on science and exploration, with most of their ships being old and under-powered even in multi-purpose roles.

Many smaller Phoenix vessels would be destroyed. Many mid-sized ships would be heavily damaged. Tens of thousands of lives would be lost in the PCG, but hundreds of thousands would be wasted in the Federation.

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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:45 pm
@ Talmid - The whole reason that the PCG was constructed was that Star Fleet at the time was corrupt.  Ignoring calls for help, or sending them too late, claiming legalities and "red tape" as excuses for their apathy.  The Admiralty had agendas of its own, wanting basically just to become rich, making deals with Dilithium miners and such.  

However, there were those that would resist the Admiralty and disobey orders, the founders of the PCG as well as other members that joined them later were just such people.  After Johnnyred, Ianrobert, and Legotrain completed their training in the academy, they were all split up, rather than being posted to the same flotilla.  Johnnyred placed in the reserves, Ian in the merchant marine where he could do no harm, and Legotrain posted to a tiny little starship, the USS Scorpion on border patrol.  Other members such as Flipz and Jared50000 were accused of things such as insubordination when in actuality they were defying illegal orders.

Now however, that an officer such as yourself and our beloved Admirals Legotrain and Ianrobert and Admiral "Scar" Hapsenburg are in command, Star Fleet has once again returned to being the honorable and noble military that it once was.

These members all joined and formed the PCG to create a Freedom Fighting unit that would respond quickly to distress or even make preemptive strikes against factions such as the Borg.
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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:09 pm
@Dino:

A conflict between the ordinary Federation and the PCG sure sounds grim, Dino.  With the alternative being a Talmid Federation vs the PCG, it would basically be the PCG vs a slightly more militarized Federation, thanks to my influence in Star Fleet Tactical.  In a Talmid Federation, the typical starship is probably a science ship with a bit more advanced weapons technology than an ordinary vessel, but the primary change would be a lot more hull rigidity and armor.  A Talmid Federation starship wont fall apart from a few Klingon pewpews.  No flying bricks on my ships. Razz

The Talmid Federation also has the Star Force military for planetary-based warfare.

Aside from containing some military starship divisions, Star Fleet would still be largely science and exploration based.  Advanced combat vessels are a minority, but a few combat fleets (like Minuteman Division) do exist, some roaming around the galaxy's hotspots while others wait in standby, but they're there, and they're ready for a fight, should the need arise.

That's a Talmid Federation, but seeing as we are still the Federation, we still use these.




@Johnnyred: I see. It can be said inside the RP and out that my character's involvement in militarizing Star Fleet was inspired by the PCG. Smile But a few combat fleets doesn't replace the PCG at all. You guys are lightyears and centuries ahead in technology, military might, and organization. There's still some corruption in the Federation's Admiralty, there always will be, and the Admirals who seem to be be blissfully ignorant are pacifists, like Admiral Green.
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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:47 pm
I tip my hat to you sir. And back to the main purpose of this topic. I believe that possibly dozens of the smaller PCG ships would be destroyed, however, the supercruisers of the PCG would barely be touched. I would really like to see you make some Federation supercruisers (What the Talmidon is big, I don't know if it's quite supercruiser level) I know you can, because I saw you refit the Empress, and while I don't necessarily like all of it, it was pretty good and I think that if you go out and make a supership without following anyone's design you would make a simply amazing ship.

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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:58 pm
He did make one actually; I don't remember what it's called. One sec...

Elucidator, that's it! Yeah, that thing was huge. Just look at it: http://universe.lego.com/en-us/community/creationlab/displaycreation.aspx?id=d6fcb981-17d3-48fb-9226-271366468624&searchtext=Elucidator !

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Meanwhile, on the chat....
Arik wrote:I'm ready to get back to worldbuilding now... Razz

Tetrahedron wrote:I'm not sure if we should interrupt Ant like this...
He might kill us with his cow bombs

Star-Hunter wrote:"He might kill us with his cow bombs."
I'll take phrases I never thought I'd hear in my lifetime for $500
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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:00 am
Eeeeeh... I'm sure he could do a lot better now... that's basically just an oval with guns on it. Tal has gotten much more talented since and he could probably make something pretty epic. Razz

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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:02 am
But it's huge, is my point. Razz

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Meanwhile, on the chat....
Arik wrote:I'm ready to get back to worldbuilding now... Razz

Tetrahedron wrote:I'm not sure if we should interrupt Ant like this...
He might kill us with his cow bombs

Star-Hunter wrote:"He might kill us with his cow bombs."
I'll take phrases I never thought I'd hear in my lifetime for $500
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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:15 am
True.  But huge doesn't equal good. Razz
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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:58 am
You're right, the Talmidon isn't much a Supercruiser.  It's more the size of a very large Cruiser I think, with the structural rigidity of an Oberth and the weapons of a Battleship.  Large battleships and Star Fighters are more my thing now, though I could try and make a Supecruiser-sized ship that isn't a flying trapezoid.   

Challenge accepted.  Cool
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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:00 am
Bow chicka bow wow. Cool

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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:01 am
@Mightyman: Well technically, the Elucidator was a superwarcruiser. Razz JK

I know I have no part in this discussion, as I don't belong in either PCG (at least directly) or Federation, but how big is the PCG? And the Federation? I must agree with J-red and Dino on most of their points, as far as cap ships go.

I'm not sure about terrestrial warfare, because, as far as I know, the PCG doesn't have a lot of ground units (I might be wrong) and the Federation has a larger army (I think).

As for pure air/fighter/sub-capital (?) power, I'd say this category also goes to the Federation. They have a larger variety of starfighters, gunships, bombers, etc, while the PCG is more limited (I think Razz).

And for naval power, this definitely goes to the PCG (sorry Talmid Razz). The PCG has mostly larger ships with considerably more firepower. Supercruisers such as the St. George, Patriarch, Empress, and Argo (?) would rip through the Feds' smaller and medium sized ships like nothing. They have considerably more "super"weaponry and a larger navy. In contrast, as Talmid pointed out, though the Feds have weaponized their exploration ships to a greater extent, they remain heavily outgunned.

Here's the list of Fed "large" ship classes I can name:
Confederation
El Niño
Unification
Elucidator
Beneficent
Twilight

PCG "large" ship classes
Indomitable
Empress
Patriarch
St. George
Argo

I know I forgot ships for both sides probably. When I mean "large", I don't mean in terms of firepower, but in size. Razz

Anyway, if we only base it on this list, the Feds win. But considering the PCG is considerably more militarized and of much greater size, the PCG has more smaller vessels, even if these ships listed are one of a kind.

So, all in all, based on my lack of PCG and UFP logistical knowledge this, the Feds would win on land and in the air (as in sub-capital vessels) while the PCG rules the stars. I would say the PCG wins though, as they can use their sheer number of fighters carried by cap ships to take out Fed fighters, and launch orbital bombardment and etc. However, the PCG would undoubtedly take heavy losses in space, regardless of their numerical and firepower superiority. Fed fighters would inflict very heavy, and perhaps irreparable damage to PCG fighter forces as well as fleet ships. They could bomb out PCG land forces.

Militarily, with no political and economic fluctuations involved, the PCG would eventually, inevitably win. Of course, losses would be notoriously high for the PCG and a complete extinction for the UFP.

This article is not meant to offend anyone. This article is purely uninfluenced by any known Razz preference to either side. Any members of either group are great people, and this is purely theoretical and meant for fun. Smile
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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:19 pm
Mirage, that sounds just about right.

The PCG does have some more "large" ships though, about double of the ones you listed

Potomac

Scorpion

Essaych

Triumphant (smaller, but still pretty big compared to SF ships)

Vanguard (Still big next to SF)

Ronnin

Tigerlily

Starfury (LT built at about half the scale as everyone else, so that thing is huge)


There were more of pretty decent (but not absolutely massive) size, but I'm feeling too lazy to go find them. Razz


    Also, I wouldn't count on the Federation having fighter or ground superiority;
even if all of Starfleet was like Minuteman Division.

    Soccergirl made a LOT of fighters, about as many as Talmid. Plus the PCG also has a few good fighter designs from Scare, Gandalf, J-red, and others. So I'd say that even against a Talmid-style Federation, it'd be a draw. But if it was just Starfleet with Minuteman Division as a small part of it... let me put it this way, Starfleet doesn't do fighters. The PCG would absolutely annihilate Starfleet's fighter forces.

    The Federation believes in ground combat even less than it does fighter-craft. Our Star Quest marines would mop every rock we wanted to take with the Federation's forces. And even with Minuteman Division, we could still win both by sheer number of boots on the ground, and by quickly and very effectively taking key targets. There are factions who are better at small scale, key ground position operations than the PCG, but not many, and certainly not Starfleet.

    Frankly, in an all-out battle to the death between both factions, I see the PCG losing at most 450 ships and 100,000 men. But Starfleet would lose ten thousand ships, and eight million personnel. It would be similar to Starfleet fighting the Borg; although not quite as one-sided, and with the "Borg" actually being better at not only the big picture, but all the little details of the battle.


    I would really pity the Federation if they started an all-out-war with the PCG. Their losses would be horrific, tragic, and purposeless.

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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:34 pm
@Dino: Oh yeah...I...err...forgot about those. Razz

And I forgot about that as well. Except, I was referring to the Feds' many fighter (like the Star Hawk, Star something, something, etc Razz) designs, which could probably adapt more quickly to a certain situation. But if course, if it was the Minuteman alone, I see the PCG literally taking 0 casualties, and several men at most.

As for ground forces, I just meant in terms of mechanized/armored power. Talmid has done four mechs (forgot all the names Razz) and the Karbert Armor, which would, theoretically, fulfill all necessary roles. However, the PCG also has some great designs, but not a MBT. But I totally agree with you anyway lol.

I think I can see that, but quote frankly, I can see the PCG losing far fewer forces. Against Star Trek Starfleet, I'd say the SF would be shooting for diplomacy and get splattered in little blotches all over the floor while the PCG would take pretty much 0 casualties. Against Minuteman Division, with no offense to Talmid, even with this fleet and several others like it, even if the PCG had about the same tech as the SF, and did not use any large ships, they would quickly take down SF, with sheer numbers. I see the PCG taking about 50-100 ship at most and maybe several hundred to even several thousand fighters and at most about 25000 troops, at least during the initial battle. Afterwards, if resistance is on other planets, well, maybe 100000.

So yeah, PCG wins, sorry Talmid. Razz
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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:41 pm
^^^^ agreed. And as to PCG loses, I did say "at most"


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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:42 pm
@Dino: Oh yeah. Didn't see that Razz
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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:47 pm
Regarding ground combat....



This is the PCG.



This is the Federation.



Who do you think would win? Razz




As PXR has mentioned, the Federation is not devoid of a ground army.  We've got Star Force, but they are to starship security forces as Minuteman Division is to the rest of Star Fleet.  In a Talmid Federation I like to think we've got a squad of Star Force stationed on every starship, tho.

Star Force trooper:
:
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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:09 pm
To be fair...

Spoiler:



But yes, I must agree with your picture analyses.

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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:05 pm
Dino: That was brilliant, what you did there. Razz

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