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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:58 pm
It was Google's idea Razz

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Putting the Fleet in Star Fleet

on Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:35 pm
Showcased here is Star Fleet's might and lack thereof in starships.

First off, the might.




This is Star Fleet's latest warships, combat-capable ships, and mainstream ships designed with a tactical edge.  More info on individual ships can be found on this forum.

Back row, left to right: Executive Class, USS Canis Majoris, Executive Class
Middle row: Excalibur Class, Taurus Class, Emissary Class, Century Class
Front row: Juggernaut Class, USS Talmidon IV, Juggernaut Class

Then we've got plenty of old relics....

(Active means that starships of this type/class are assumed to be in active duty, and are ready for battle.

Retired means that starships of this type/class are assumed to be retired.  Some are sold as scrap, while survivors are stored in service depos.  The survivors can be brought online and used in combat.)

Millennium Type:


This special-purpose warship was built as a platform to carry a new anti-Borg spatial weapon during a late 25th Century campaign against a resurgence of Spectre Borg.  The weapon was later put on a few other warships of the era, but the Millennium was retired shortly after the campaign ended.

Current status: Retired.

Judea Class:


Much like the Millennium, the Judea carried that spatial weapon but was designed with a more general target in mind, specifically the forces of Commander Jandar.  A small fleet was built, but as they were expensive to maintain, they were quickly retired.

Current status: Retired.

Shiloh Class:


The Shiloh was built at the same time as the Judea with the same purpose.

Current status: Retired.

Premier Class:


The Premier was a carrier launched at the same time as the Shiloh and the Judea, armed with the same experimental weapon.  A number of the class were built, and a few have evaded retirement by serving as cargo ships with the weapons removed or powered off.

Current status: Active.

Confederation Class:


The original USS Confederation was a strong vessel built in the mid 25th Century, as a standalone ship.  The ship was found to be a capable warship during conflicts with the Romulans and the Borg, prompting a limited run of the Class, with ships built for as long as there was demand.  Old but gold, the survivors remain in active duty.

Current status: Active.

USS Priceless:


This standalone whale of a starship was built to expand Star Fleet's lineup of advanced warships during the 2470s.  The Priceless is capable of MVAM, or Multi Vector Assault Mode.

Current status: Active.

USS Unification:


This experimental standalone space barge had its role changed in the middle of its construction, going from Cargo Carrier to Fighter Carrier at the snap of some random Commodore's fingers.  The Unification was found to have sickeningly poor structural integrity and was an embarrassment to the fleet.  A recall fixed the worst of it, but squeaks and rattles remained until the ship's quick retirement.

Current status: Retired.

USS Black Mamba:


The Black Mamba was a standalone ship built to battle the forces of Commander Jandar.

Current status: Active.

England Class:


The experimental England Class was built to fill the Battlecruiser niche but was launched prematurely.  Design flaws and lack of weapons power prompted an early retirement.  The class's flagship, the USS Burlington, remains in active duty, however.

Current status: Retired.

USS Talmidon III Refit:


Ultimately replaced by the USS Talmidon IV, the 'III Refit is powered down and sits orbiting Saturn's moon, Titan, as a museum.  She can be brought online and returned to active duty should the need arise.

Current status: Retired.

USS Mightiest:


The USS Mightiest was a refit project between Mightyman503 of the PCG and some Star Fleet engineers.  The resulting starship is old, but, like the Confederation, has aged well through the years and is still flying today.

Current status: Active.

Beneficent Class:


The Beneficent Class was a limited production run of dreadnoughts based off the Talmidon III Refit, with some structural strengthening.

Current status: Active.

Valor Class:


Built for raining phaser fire on anything below the front of this starship, the Valor is strange and useless at a lot of things.

Current status: Active.

Elucidator Class:


Yeah, this... thing.  Four were built, expecting to exhaust Star Fleet Tactical's budget for years to come.  But the Feds bailed us out, while our allies gave us free pizza.

As the Elucidator is relatively new and has seen and survived action so far, the class is still active.

Current status: Active.


Now for the aforementioned lack thereof.

Silly Federation:


The Excelsior Class has served for close to 300 years now... and we still sent a number of 'em to battle the Black Star Mercenary Force and her allies.

Not a lot of them survived, but what can you expect from a 300 year old starship?

Can we expect less from the Federation? Razz

Current status: Active.
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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:03 pm
@Talmid: I'm pretty sure you have more ships than that... Razz You have built a lot of starships, and there's way more that just those. Either way, you're still outnumbered and outgunned anyway! Razz

NO! Why did you retired the ships carrying the WAVE RIPPLE cannon? Those ships are awesome! You can't do this! *starts crying*  Sad Crying or Very sad Razz JK But seriously, why aren't they in active service anymore? I mean, they're actually relatively new, compared to ships like the Confederation, Priceless, and Mightiest. Razz

And you forgot the El Niño. Razz
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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:20 am
@ PXR - You neglected the Arondite class, and I'm pretty sure we have more supercruisers than that. Razz Also, typically the PCG have better fighter escorts, better weapons systems, and better shielding.

As far as fighters, you're neglecting fighters like the Phoenix and Razerhawk that are specifically multirole and handle well in and out of atmo. And the PCG has DELTA Hardsuits, as well as other Mobile suits and mechanized infantry (Plus utilization of some robotic forces as well, though those are typically used only on starships). And while mechs are superior in space to a fighter, unless you have a legit mobile suit than a mech on land vs. a fighter is a sitting duck.

We haven't even discussed superweapons like SPUDs and Wave Motion Guns/Wave Shock Cannons, etc.

Not to mention tactical minds. While we have one Talmid. We have Scarecrow, Gandalf, Dino, myself, Soccergirl, etc. (And more if we count other members that are not present here). Plus there's also the fact that Starfleet at least originally and even up through next gen was primarily founded upon exploration, not combat. Phasers are nice, but deflectors fall much more quickly to a rentless pounding from Shock Cannons,

Overall...

PCG starships and fleet strength vs Starfleet Starships and Fleet strength = PCG

Star Lancers Vs. Star Force = Star Lancers

Star Quest Marines Vs... Honestly... not much really. You've got a few different ground force vehicles, but if you count in my stuff, Ant's stuff, and Csf's stuff, we've got some good stuff. (You should make some more ground forces! Tal! And I mean some sort of Marines)

Star Fleet was never. Ever in the history of ever trained for ground battles. Why do you think them red shirts die so easily? They had Space Marines in one series. And that's it. And that was the earliest series chronologically. Ergo Starquest Marines > Security Away Teams.

And that's my take. We'd probably lose some of our smaller vessels. But none of the customs honestly I think would go down. If anything, our losses would all be like Galaxies and Sovereigns or less.

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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:33 am
@J-red: IK. Razz I neglected quite many of the PCG's large ships. Razz Lol, well, in that case, let's just put it this way: Minuteman Division vs. the combined strength of the PCG. And, that won't really end well for Talmid. Razz

As for sub-capital, I just meant the number of fighters Talmid has produced. I mean, Tal's Fed has quite a few I think, while the Fed Feds have bulky looking fighters that didn't do much against those Cardassian ships. Razz Although I can see what you mean, I just meant in general with Talmid's Star Force.

I think the only time I saw a real ST ground battle was in DS9 with Sisko vs the Dominion. Razz

Well...in that case, the Feds still lose. Razz And the number of Fed survivors depends on the mercy of the PCG (which I think would be pretty lenient Razz).
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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:02 am
Instead of using bolt weapons like we do against real enemies we would probably use phasers set on stun for ground battles and only destroy actual enemy vehicles and help out damaged vessels by sending rescue parties aboard to fetch survivors.

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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:06 am
PXR wrote:@Talmid: I'm pretty sure you have more ships than that... Razz You have built a lot of starships, and there's way more that just those. Either way, you're still outnumbered and outgunned anyway! Razz

Yeah... but I like these ones the most. Razz

PXR wrote:NO! Why did you retired the ships carrying the WAVE RIPPLE cannon? Those ships are awesome! You can't do this! *starts crying*  Sad Crying or Very sad Razz JK But seriously, why aren't they in active service anymore? I mean, they're actually relatively new, compared to ships like the Confederation, Priceless, and Mightiest. Razz

And you forgot the El Niño. Razz

Remember, we're the Federation. Razz

1. We don't believe in weapons of mass destruction anymore, it wouldn't look good. Razz
2. The weapon is expensive to maintain and takes a lot of power and fuel. Then again, we built the Elucidator....
3. The Confederation is like the Excelsior, it's old but rugged but is very reliable, and its weapons are more conventional so they're easier to maintain. The Priceless is one of it's kind but it also conventional, so it's easier to maintain. The Mightyiest was built by a PCG member, so it has PCG-reliability and will never break down. Razz

And I forgot the El Niño. Sorry.  Embarassed 



@Johnnyred: Well, the Feds have an entire section of tactical minds called Star Fleet Tactical. They mostly work on making our conventional weapons better and planning defensive strategies that must see at least four Mirandas put out of action. Razz We must destroy those Mirandas. Razz

I must dispute the part about Star Lancers vs Star Force, tho, at least in the fighter regiment. Star Force is almost a separate entity from Star Fleet when it comes to tactics and combat and stuff, so they don't share the Fed's pacifist ideology.

Aerospace fighters like this:
Falcon:

And this:
Phoenix:

Should (I think) be able to tangle with Star Lancers. They're faster than the Peregrines in DS9, though being fighters they can blow up just as easily when hit by any ship-borne weaponry... but that happens to any fighter. Razz



Star Quest vs the Fed's land regiment is not much of a fight imo. Security teams and some Star Force troopers plus four small mechs and two armored cars aren't going to do much against Star Quest, I'm pretty sure.   
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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:36 am
@J-red: I expected nothing less from the PCG. Razz

@Talmid: Lol! But, as Worf puts it in DS9, "There is nothing more honorable than victory." Razz I mean, personally, if I could win a war by pushing a big red button, I would do it. Razz But, to be serious, it would save countless friendly lives, even if, it doesn't, as you put it, "look good." Razz

As for the power/fuel supply, just take off the dozens of pizza replicators. Razz
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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:55 am
@PXR:
"As for the power/fuel supply, just take off the dozens of pizza replicators."
"take off the dozens of pizza replicators."
"take off the dozens of pizza replicators."


  Never!
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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:40 am
@Talmid: But aren't better weapons more I mean less important than food? Razz

Lol, no wonder why the Feds' ships are like 200-300 years old. Razz Pizza replicators are extremely unnecessary I mean absolutely important for all Fed ships. NOT! Razz

Oh great, Talmid's not gonna be very happy with these statements!

*starts running* Razz
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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:52 am
@ Talmid - Yes, but the PCG has fighters such as...

Razerhawk
Spoiler:

Phoenix
Spoiler:

Dagger
Spoiler:

Wildstar
Spoiler:

Daybreak
Spoiler:

Triton
Spoiler:
" />

Not to mention a lot more that Jamman, Soccergirl, and Dino have made. Plus other users.
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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:29 pm
Beautiful fighters, no doubt about that, and able to partake in a variety of roles, with such a variety of fighters, and look great doing each and all! Very Happy

The Wildstar, Phoenix, Dagger, and Razerhawk look like they have a lot more weapons and munitions than I know how to put on a fighter, while the Daybreak and the Triton looking to be on a slightly lower level, armament wise, probably better in atmospheric conditions than the others due to probably being lighter. The Falcon and Phoenix I posted as examples have micro-torpedo launchers in their noses which could be counterparts to most of the bigger, meaner looking external guns on the PCG fighters, but with lighter payloads.

I'm still pretty sure a Falcon could tangle with the PCG fighters, bringing who would win down to who is the better pilot, or who fires more weapons first. Being my flag-bearer, the Star Falcon has to look good by me. Razz Regardless, pilot-error and pilot-awesomness aside, determining the victor at least in the fighter regiment also has to do with how many fighters each side can build, put out, and man.

The Federation has a lot of construction facilities, though only a small fraction of them build fighters, tanks, and war starships. But with the influence of militaristic minds they could probably start focusing only warmachines, should the need arise, but it would take time.

Evidently the PCG has a lot of construction facilities too which are definitely effective and efficient, with all the Supercruisers you guys have. Being the PCG, which is dedicated purely for defending (or offending) against enemies, they wouldn't have to spend time retooling for military craft. They already build military craft, have always been, and will continue to, though in a time of war they could probably build stuff even faster....

I'm pretty sure the Federation has more facilities though, so if they're not destroyed in the early stages of the war, they could easily start launching thousands of aerospace fighters of comparable strength to the PCG's fighters and defeat Star Lancers through sheer numbers, unless the Fed pilots are truly incompetent. That's another thing, pilot training, that the Federation would need time to build up for the majority of its officers. There's probably a crash course for shuttling in the Academy, but....

AH, too many factors.
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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:33 pm
True story. It's a good thing we'll never have to fight against each other.

Although... that would make a Really cool RPG. If we did an alt universe where the PCG and Federation were at war. (Though neither would be in the wrong, someone would be pitting them against each other.)

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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:40 pm
Even if there was a war, there probably wouldn't be much resistance from the Federation anyway, just a lot of words, definitely media propaganda, but we'd be too pacifist to let a war last very long. The Federation would either get taken over, sign a truce, or get taken over because it's allowed by the truce. Razz

An RP like that does indeed sound interesting! Too bad I'm bad at RPing.  
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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:11 pm
An RPG of this sounds extremely intriguing... make it so number anyone. Razz

    About fighters: I think our fighters designs are overall about tied. However, the PCG would have a LARGE standing fighter force, thousands, likely tens of thousands of fighters.

   However, I must dispute your dispute. Razz
    "I must dispute the part about Star Lancers vs Star Force, tho, at least in the fighter regiment. Star Force is almost a separate entity from Star Fleet when it comes to tactics and combat and stuff, so they don't share the Fed's pacifist ideology."
    Unless I'm missing a big part of the picture, I really don't see this working. Star Force still has to be funded, almost assuredly over 90% of said funds coming from the Federation. Even if they have some good people in charge of Star Force, getting permission to do anything on a large enough scale to make a major difference in wars would be... extremely challenging to say the least. And given that the crew of the Enterprise E, hardly some of the more peaceful people in the Federation, equated shock troops to cannon fodder, (I'll find the quote if you want) I can hardly see the Federation being at all happy with the use of single man fighters. All it takes is a single hit from a low powered cap ship weapon and you've lost a man and a fighter.
    So your fighter designs are excellent, and your pilots are not lacking in skill; rather, your own government would VERY likely (looking to canon, although we are pretty far in the future) block your effectual use of your starfighter assets.

And as to building new fighter designs during the war... honestly... how is the Federation finally agreeing to pump out thousands and thousands of fighters going to make a real difference? The PCG possess stealth tech, the Federation signed away it's ability to use such tech. The PCG could simply send in a pair of phase cloaked supercruisers and take out every major known shipyard the Federation has. (given that we already have ships inside Fed space... we'd be VERY hard to stop from moving ships wherever we wanted them)


But to throw a couple of monkey wrenches into the mix...

1: Section 31. How much firepower do they have? No one knows. How advanced is their tech? No one really knows, but it's definitely PCG grade. How would they feel about the Federation being attacked by the PCG? That is the one thing we can probably draw a realistic conclusion on. They'd be ticked. (Unless they set the whole thing up of course Razz )

2: Allies. The Federation may be able to depend on the Romulan Republic, as well as others, for help. But I imagine the PCG may well be able to count on the Atnlays, Yaka, and others, so it might be even worse for the Federation, unless of course everyone who hates the PCG agreed to work with the UFP in a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" kind of deal, so it could be Klingons, POTENTIALLY some Imperial Romulan Forces, MAYBE some leftover Dominion forces, I mean, we might even see pirates and mercs allying with the UFP just to get a chance to fight the PCG. Or if not directly, from behind the lines. It could potentially become EXTREMELY complicated, depending on who hates who more at the time. It could easily boil over into The Great Alpha Quadrant and Beta Quadrant War. In which everyone is involved with the fighting. A very interesting scenario.

3: Family ties. Brother against sister, grandfather against grandson, wife against husband. This could make things immensely complicated. Much like the American Civil War. MANY crew members would likely be deserting, changing side, or even outright refusing to fight. The two factions would have to be M_A_D in order for it to escalate into a proper all out war. I do not wish to imagine what would cause so much hostility that it would cause friend to being will to fire upon friend. A million times over.

I thought there was something else, but I cannot recall what. Razz



You wouldn't happen to have a Shiloh class available for scrap rescue sale, would you? Even with that weapon removed, if you really don't want to be selling such tech. (I can't recall if that tech was ever opened up to the PCG or not, I want to say it was not though.) Not that'd I'd mind if it came with a nice big super weapon. Razz I've always been fond of the Shiloh, and hate to see it go to waste Razz Smile


Last edited by Dino27 on Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:21 pm
@Dino: Is that why we see so few fighters, except by use by Sisko during the Dominion War? Cause' if that's the reason, gee, either the Feds are a bunch of idiots or they're plain naive. I read somewhere that the Feds don't like fighter use since it claims lives much easier than a cap ship (because losing a cap ship, the crew can be alive still) but a fighter is a one hit one loss thing, as you said.

War is obviously going to claim lives realistically, unless you stick with an entirely mechanical force, like the CIS from SW with the droid army. Even then, you need biological leaders, which would probably get executed. If this is the Federation, well, they're a bunch of idealists and optimists, thinking that they can win a war without fighters.

A few squadrons of fighters, as we saw in SW (with the X-Wings & Y-Wings), Independence Day (with the F-16's I think), and Starship Troopers (with the TAC fighters, which, mind you, saved an entire army on Planet P or in the Chronicles, where fighter and bomber units managed to destroy an entire Bug mound with plasma positions inside). Without fighters, a super strong navy is useless (think about the Battle of Midway), because your AA cannons won't be enough to concentrate on super agile fighters.

So sorry Talmid. Razz Btw, I meant the canon Feds, not Tal's Feds. Razz
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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:47 pm
^^^ Previous post updated.


That was my assumption as to why the UFP doesn't use hardly any fighters, but they ARE somewhat justified being squeamish about it though.

1: big shields have shields that cover the entire vessel with anti-cap-ship protection. Little fighter based weapons need the shields to be down to be even minimally effective.
2: modern targeting systems are extremely accurate, and smart. Unless you use stealth tech, even a fighter (in 2,600) wouldn't be that hard to hit.
3: modern cap-ship weapons have insanely long ranges. Fighters can be picked off before they even get in close.


That said, if you have some targeting sensor jamming tech in use... (not a bad idea... Razz ) fighters are a viable option in ship to ship battles once the enemy ship's shields go down. Then fighters are good for taking out weak points. Before the shields drop, they are handy for fighter defense (for ships with downed shielded) and some torpedo defense. (To a point of course.)

But where fighters REALLY excel in my own opinion, is in atmospheric conditions. They can serve to escort landing craft. (Assuming transport inhibitors are in place and you have to land to get boots on the ground.) They are a mobile defense mechanism, they move with the fleet, or even better, can patrol several systems, so you don't have to pay for stationary AA tech for low risk planets. They are also excellent for taking down enemy landing craft. (again, only if you've got transport inhibitors in place so that they have to actually land.) And, as long as your ground-based enemy doesn't have insane shielding or AA systems, they are absolutely invaluable in assisting ground troops.

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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:08 pm
@Dino: I thought that the reason why fighters were so effective was because they could slip through shields and operate their weapons that way. Razz

Although I agree with you about range, but technically, if everybody uses energy weapons, range isn't really an advantage or disadvantage. But I agree with you about your last paragraph. Personally, I really like fighters because I'm biased Razz and I think that they are absolutely invaluable. Obviously, they will be the ones taking the highest casualties probably, per unit.

And they're absolutely important in defending land-based positions, as you said, because they can scatter attacking land troops from above. I would say in space, they're actually pretty important though, as they can constantly harass enemy vessels. If they can slip through shields, than they would shine. Razz
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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:16 pm
@Dino on page 2, since I haven't read page 3 yet at the time of this post:

I'm pretty sure thousands of new Federation Fighters would make a difference, if their construction facilities didn't blow up in the early stages of the war. Smile  And should there be a big enough threat, the Federation could be swayed away from its pacifist mindset and start building more fighters, warships, and training more crewmen.

In a peaceful Talmid Federation, I'm going to make up some stats.
- About 70% of active starships are on missions of exploration.
- About 40% of active starships are old designs built over 100 years ago.
- About 20% of active starships are purpose-built warmachines.
- Say there are ten billion (obviously more) crewmen and officers serving in the Federation, only half a billion (or just 5% of the total enlisted) are in Star Force.

When a war is looming, changes can start happening.
- Over 150 year old starships get recalled, some refitted.
- Exploration is largely put on a hold, with many starships called back for defense, except Captain Picard's ship if we're fighting the Borg.
- Old warships are pulled out of retirement.
- Tech Dudes start working on new weapons.
- Thinktanks start working on new designs.
- Construction facilities start working on building warships, fighters, and tanks.
- More enlisted can start receiving combat training.
- More $$$ to Star Force and Star Fleet Tactical.

Two weeks later, the Federation should look like this:
- About 85% of active starships are equipped with up to date weaponry and shields.
- About 15% of active starships are over 100 year olds, all with refitted weapons. (remaining relics are converted to remote controlled unmanned warp capable flying bombs as last resorts, as they can be easily hijacked)
- 3% of active starships are outdated exploration vessels.
- About 30% of total enlisted are in Star Force.
- Remaining construction facilities are building warships, fighters, and tanks.


It wont happen overnight, but the Federation can change.  But the question is, will it be enough to win a war?
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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:57 pm
You expect to convert 85% of Federation starships to be modern combat capable vessels... in two weeks? Yeah... based on what we saw in the Dominion War... that's not going to happen. But the Federation certainly COULD change, it'd just take major geopolitical events for that to happen. But who knows, the Federation has somehow survived itself for six hundred years. Razz It may yet be able to put up a serious fight. But the PCG would definitely have the initial advantage.

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Re: PCG vs Federation

on Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:06 pm
Well, we could blow up all the exploration ships so that the warships become an 85% majority. Razz

Make that two months.
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